History, Trends and Future of Sectarian Violence and Civil War: What Should One Expect?
It seems that the ongoing clashes between Sunnis and Shias in Iraq have ‘inspired’ more cleavages between sects all over the Middle East.
Yesterday, 52 people were detained in Egypt for their alleged involvement of three days of religiously-motivated violence in the port city of Alexandria. These sectarian confrontations have led to the death of two people, Muslims and Coptic Christians clashed after a Coptic worshiper was stabbed to death in a church.
According to the Egyptian Ahram newspaper, Hosni Mubarak clearly condemned the clashes and stated that Egypt, ‘does not differentiate between Muslims and Christians,’ and moreover ‘such differences need to be eliminated for the sake of the country’s cohesion.’ The United States condemned the attacks and pressured Mubarak to take action. Mubarak clearly stated that the United States will not be involved in Egypt’s internal affairs but he also said that Egypt shares the same ideals of discipline, respect and civility as the US.
Sectarian violence in the Middle East and even elsewhere around the world has historically seen a number of trends:
1) History has taught its observers that minorities will always be oppressed. For example, those of non-Aryan origin (specifically Jews) were oppressed and murdered during Hitler’s reign and more recently Bosnians were oppressed by Serbs under the late Slobodan Milosevic. Currently, oppression of Shias by Sunnis in Iraq is on the rise.
2) From an objective perspective, oppression will never have a justifiable reason, in fact the reasons are usually macabre, morbid and inhumane. More importantly, the reasons are based on pure ‘difference.’ This difference can range from religious beliefs to skin color.
3) On a micro-level, sectarian violence (i.e. manifestations, clashes, riots etc.) tends to occur between the opposing classes of the proletariat (i.e. poor Egyptian Muslims and poor Coptic Christians). However, the bourgeoisie and aristocratic classes are involved once the violence reaches political proportions.
4) Sectarian violence has been a protagonist in instigating civil war (i.e. the Zulu Civil War of 1817-1819, the Lebanese Civil War of 1975-1990 etc.)
The four basic trends above have been salient in the history of the world’s sectarian violence and civil wars. These trends have certainly not halted and it is not apparent whether they will ever cease to exist.
In case of Egypt, poor economic conditions as well as illiteracy, lack of education and resources have been the main culprits in instigating meaningless violence between Muslims and Christians. These factors aforementioned also breed religious extremism. In essence, as I argued before in my previous post,
‘Democracy: Does It And Will It Work In the Middle East?’ wanna-be democratic countries such as Egypt and many others in the Middle East need to first work on basic issues plaguing their societies. If Egyptians are generally wealth off, there will be less inclination to waste time and effort to harass the minorities and cause an internal raucous.
The ongoing sectarian violence in Iraq and Egypt should teach each of the country’s respective governments a lesson. The case in Egypt is much clearer: there are sporadic and futile clashes between Muslims and Christians (which are on the rise) that need to be adhered to before they are blown out of proportion. There are both short and long-term solutions.
First, on the short-term Mubarak needs to take a proactive stance and persecute perpetrators from both sects as well as call for religious unity. There needs to be a better understanding of co-existence and a need to cease any animosity. Rhetoric will not be sufficient to appease the Coptic Christians; more affirmative action needs to take place and this could be in the form of minority rights’ laws or protection laws for minorities.
Second, on the long-term Mubarak’s government (and its predecessors) needs to take a more profound effort in improving literacy rates and education levels in the country. This should be coupled with a realization that standards of living are improving. Thus, the economy needs to remove itself from stagnation and offer employment opportunities for youthful Egyptians which constitute the bulk of the population.
On the other hand, Iraq is still struggling to achieve any perceivable stability and this has led to an ongoing debate as to whether the country is in fact in civil war. Both Mubarak and the Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal have declared that civil war is already under way. More importantly Iraq’s deputy interior minister as well as Prime Minister Iyad Allawi have also made similar statements stating that Iraq has been in such a state for a year.
However, the debate as to whether Iraq is in civil war has really detracted from what’s important. The current Iraqi administration should independently attempt to fill the cleavages between the Sunnis and Shias. Any further US involvement will exacerbate the situation. The Iraqi administration has acknowledged the problem (and that is the first and important step) but now it is time to take foreign-free measures to alleviate the problem.
Yesterday, 52 people were detained in Egypt for their alleged involvement of three days of religiously-motivated violence in the port city of Alexandria. These sectarian confrontations have led to the death of two people, Muslims and Coptic Christians clashed after a Coptic worshiper was stabbed to death in a church.
According to the Egyptian Ahram newspaper, Hosni Mubarak clearly condemned the clashes and stated that Egypt, ‘does not differentiate between Muslims and Christians,’ and moreover ‘such differences need to be eliminated for the sake of the country’s cohesion.’ The United States condemned the attacks and pressured Mubarak to take action. Mubarak clearly stated that the United States will not be involved in Egypt’s internal affairs but he also said that Egypt shares the same ideals of discipline, respect and civility as the US.
Sectarian violence in the Middle East and even elsewhere around the world has historically seen a number of trends:
1) History has taught its observers that minorities will always be oppressed. For example, those of non-Aryan origin (specifically Jews) were oppressed and murdered during Hitler’s reign and more recently Bosnians were oppressed by Serbs under the late Slobodan Milosevic. Currently, oppression of Shias by Sunnis in Iraq is on the rise.
2) From an objective perspective, oppression will never have a justifiable reason, in fact the reasons are usually macabre, morbid and inhumane. More importantly, the reasons are based on pure ‘difference.’ This difference can range from religious beliefs to skin color.
3) On a micro-level, sectarian violence (i.e. manifestations, clashes, riots etc.) tends to occur between the opposing classes of the proletariat (i.e. poor Egyptian Muslims and poor Coptic Christians). However, the bourgeoisie and aristocratic classes are involved once the violence reaches political proportions.
4) Sectarian violence has been a protagonist in instigating civil war (i.e. the Zulu Civil War of 1817-1819, the Lebanese Civil War of 1975-1990 etc.)
The four basic trends above have been salient in the history of the world’s sectarian violence and civil wars. These trends have certainly not halted and it is not apparent whether they will ever cease to exist.
In case of Egypt, poor economic conditions as well as illiteracy, lack of education and resources have been the main culprits in instigating meaningless violence between Muslims and Christians. These factors aforementioned also breed religious extremism. In essence, as I argued before in my previous post,
‘Democracy: Does It And Will It Work In the Middle East?’ wanna-be democratic countries such as Egypt and many others in the Middle East need to first work on basic issues plaguing their societies. If Egyptians are generally wealth off, there will be less inclination to waste time and effort to harass the minorities and cause an internal raucous.
The ongoing sectarian violence in Iraq and Egypt should teach each of the country’s respective governments a lesson. The case in Egypt is much clearer: there are sporadic and futile clashes between Muslims and Christians (which are on the rise) that need to be adhered to before they are blown out of proportion. There are both short and long-term solutions.
First, on the short-term Mubarak needs to take a proactive stance and persecute perpetrators from both sects as well as call for religious unity. There needs to be a better understanding of co-existence and a need to cease any animosity. Rhetoric will not be sufficient to appease the Coptic Christians; more affirmative action needs to take place and this could be in the form of minority rights’ laws or protection laws for minorities.
Second, on the long-term Mubarak’s government (and its predecessors) needs to take a more profound effort in improving literacy rates and education levels in the country. This should be coupled with a realization that standards of living are improving. Thus, the economy needs to remove itself from stagnation and offer employment opportunities for youthful Egyptians which constitute the bulk of the population.
On the other hand, Iraq is still struggling to achieve any perceivable stability and this has led to an ongoing debate as to whether the country is in fact in civil war. Both Mubarak and the Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal have declared that civil war is already under way. More importantly Iraq’s deputy interior minister as well as Prime Minister Iyad Allawi have also made similar statements stating that Iraq has been in such a state for a year.
However, the debate as to whether Iraq is in civil war has really detracted from what’s important. The current Iraqi administration should independently attempt to fill the cleavages between the Sunnis and Shias. Any further US involvement will exacerbate the situation. The Iraqi administration has acknowledged the problem (and that is the first and important step) but now it is time to take foreign-free measures to alleviate the problem.
posted by The Egyptian Observer at 12:23 PM
23 Comments:
great post...and i am with you totally...it is the poverty that cause that accedients.....it will never stop especially in alexandria where i live because it is the center of the coptic section relegion....
5 million unemplyement means 5 million bombs are ready for everything....
muslim see coptic as they can find money easily because the church is backing them up...also 50% of the businessmen are coptics who always tend to hire coptics.....100% od prisoners are muslims....poor muslims look at those things....also copts separeted from the egyptian society and they trapped themselves in the churches which look after them and talk in the behalf of them....that aslo made up the islamic trend in the society.....
it is very important to listen to muslims and what is their problem with copts...it is a fact...muslim had bad feelings the same as the coptics.....
i see that both muslims and copts should rejoin the egyptian life regarding the relegion to face the poverty that the government are trying with all the possible ways to increase it to shut up the mouthes who can talk in politics and critisize the government...
i am dreaming to see the light...but it seems that it will never show up:((((
A good starting point for a discussion. However, I slightly disagree with you, or better: would like to add to what you've been writing, in a couple of points (other than that this is truly an interesting piece).
It's not always so that there's a majority discriminating against a minority. Yes, very usually it is so but on the other hand we have very good examples of, for example, linguistic minorities being granted completely equal status with the linguistic majority in countries such as Canada, Switzerland, Belgium and Finland, to the extent that in these countries parts of the majority complain about too good a position for the minority. Then we of course also have the cases where truly secular and multiethnic states have no legal obstacles against the advancement of any group within the country. Individual racism and intolerance, of course, exists everywhere.
Might it be only a coincidence that as far as I'm concerned all the examples of this category I know are democratic Western countries?
Then we also have the cases where actually a minority has been oppressing the majority. Take apartheid era South Africa, the most famous of the examples, take special cases such as West Bank, and take all the failed African states where an ethnic group discriminates against the rest.
As far Iraq, am I right that actually the Sunnis are the minority and the Shia the majority? As we all know, the former discriminated against the latter under Saddam's regime.
The solution to solving tensions is in my opinion very simple: treat all citizens (and residents) equally, first as citizens, then only as members of a certain religion, ethnicity, national minority or else, if needed.
Sadly enough the Middle East is one of the worst regions in the world as what comes to following my ideal above, for example because of official and non-official restrictions imposed on minority religions unheard of in most democratic Western countries.
Wow. What an ignorant rant by Sara. Talk about "no clue"
It would take several pages to intelligently and articulately respond to her OBVIOUS bigoted and racist comments. I've read her comments before on other Egyptian blogs...
Don't have the patience. *sigh.
Peace
A European observer
Our case in Egypt is not like the Iraqi one or the south African….we never had that fight and what copts call persecution before president al saddat, that means from the 70s and in abd al naser both religions were persecuted in his era….so in our history they are claiming from 30 years….Muslims and Christians live on the land of our beloved Egypt from 1400 years…
Islam is not the reason for their feelings as they claim, because Islam is exist from 1400 years and Islam was stronger and exist in Egypt through the last 1400 years more than now zillions times….
By a look at their claims and our real life…you will find ridiculous claims…
One main demand is the unemployment ….which Muslims face it too….in the international statistics …we are badly in the top countries in unemployment rate….talking as copts are persecuted because of unemployment in a country 93% of the citizens are Muslims and we are in the top countries allover the world in unemployment rate….that consider a heretic claim….
You are not an Egyptian or you didn't live in Egypt to see the mosques and churches …..You must see to know how huge is all the churches "cathedral capacity" with no exception and how the 50% of the mosques are small….
And also about that complain….they had build many cathedrals in Egypt….I do not listen to copts because I have eyes that can see 3 cathedrals are building in one area here in Alexandria…this area is not more than 4Km long!!!
They are claiming about the politic presentation…….do the Egyptians choose their politicians???????????????
Moreover copts failed in parliament elections …….is that a Muslim faults!!!!!!!!
And because of their claims they entered the parliament by piracy.
I will tell you one last thing……by reading the entire above plus knowing that they are 7% of the Egyptian population and they are controlling the Egyptian economy with 66%......please tell me the discrimination????
Copts are the same as the examples you drove in Canada, Finland……..
to the extent that in these countries parts of the majority complain about too good a position for the minority
And that is our complain also as Muslims in Egypt that copts are better treated than Muslims to the extend….
Egypter
There is a big difference between what you and others said about Egyptian Muslims and how did you and other attack al Islam ….and between what the european observer said…..he is talking about society regardless religion…minority whatever it is and majority whatever it is…….
But I will not be mercy and good with anyone attack Islam…..you want to talk about Egypt …you are welcomed……you want to talk about how bad all the egyptians regradless of the relegion, you are welcomed....you want to talk about the brother hood ....you are welcomed because they don't represent al islam.....talk about Islam will not be good and you will find the bad side always in the discussion..….the same as you and all of the others when I just mention one phrase that bible is modified….go back and see how much all of you were going to the battle against the enemies…...
Sara -
With all due respect, by your comments, you are the type of fundementalist that is plaguing Egypt with your mentality. You go from blog to blog spreading lies and showing everyone how much you hate Christians. You are a racist.
Not only that but, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR COMMENTS WAS CATEGORICALLY FALSE!!!!
Instead of using all of your energy for anger and hatred you should try and be more constructive. Open up your mind! Free your brain from radicalism because you sound very very fundementalist.
Get over it. As long as You attack Christianity and Copts you have NO credibility! Everything you write is absurd to me.
You also try and talk about history. You're history knowledge is DEEPLY flawed dear sara.
Let's see. Comment like this pissed me off:
"Islam is not the reason for their feelings as they claim, because Islam is exist from 1400 years and Islam was stronger and exist in Egypt through the last 1400 years more than now zillions times…."
-I don't even understand what you were saying. It makes no sense to me.
"You are not an Egyptian or you didn't live in Egypt to see the mosques and churches"
-Who is not Egyptian sara? Me or you? Just because YOU live there doesn't make you Egyptisn sara. I am sorry if this hurts but Copts are the decendants of the Pharaohs sara. The Coptic language is the link to the Pharaohnic Language Sara. Who's the one that doesn't know about history??
"You must see to know how huge is all the churches "cathedral capacity" with no exception and how the 50% of the mosques are small….
And also about that complain….they had build many cathedrals in Egypt….I do not listen to copts because I have eyes that can see 3 cathedrals are building in one area here in Alexandria…this area is not more than 4Km long!!!"
-I don't think you have "eyes" to see sara. But thank you sara. Thank you. Here you show your TRUE COLORS! Are you a member of the Ikhwan? Are you one of those crazy women, all wrapped up, that I see on the Ikhwan's website? Please do not speak to me of building churches you crazy fanatic!!!!! I can't believe how IGNORANT, racist and fundementalist that comment was. There are 100 times more mosques in Egypt than Churches. Are you lying to yourself?? Have you brainswashed yourself? Do the Copts burn down your mosques? Do the Copts enter your mosques and stab the worshippers? Are mosques subject to the Hamoyoni Decree???? WHAT A JOKE!!
"I will tell you one last thing……by reading the entire above plus knowing that they are 7% of the Egyptian population and they are controlling the Egyptian economy with 66%......please tell me the discrimination????"
-All of your numbers are wrong wrong wrong. Sorry to upset you but Copts in Egypt, according to the Minister of Interior, are no less than 10 million in Egypt sara. I know you would like the Copts to be 5% or 3%...actually I AM SURE YOU WOULD LIKE THE COPTS TO BE 0%, but sorry. If there are 72 million Egyptians sara that makes the Copts 13.8% and that's the number that the government gives so it could be even higher.
And then Copts owning 66% of the wealth?? Huh? Just because there are a few rich Copts like saweris does not mean they own all of the money. Have you been to "Hay al zabaleen" in Cairo? Do you even know what that is? Where do you get your numbers and information sara? Do you make them up? Get them from your hateful Imam? Get them from Mahdi Akef? Where sara?
AND THEN HERE'S MY FAVORITE PART:
"And that is our complain also as Muslims in Egypt that copts are better treated than Muslims to the extend…."
-Nothing to say here. Just to0 ridiculous of a statement to refute.
If that picture by your name is of your daughter....then I pray for her soul that she will grow up to be a loving, TOLERANT, good girl and not so full of hatred, blatant lies, and intolerance.
And it's not "European Observer" it's "Egyptian Observer"
And I do not attack Islam! I attack people with mental views of Islam like yourself. I have muslim friends. I dream of an Egypt for muslims and Copts...YOU DO NOT!!! I am sure you want an Egypt just for muslims probably like your fanatical/fundementalist friends.
Good luck sara.
Sara, if you think I am not being objective or fair, or maybe I am not aware of the reality on the ground in Egypt, please read this article.
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1392239.html
@European Observer. Thank you for your candid remarks.
The points you raised certainly add to the piece.
It is interesting to see how the cases where minorities oppressed the majority revolved around an a priori and 'anciently-embedded' derogatory antagonism. In other words, Africans were oppressed as slaves (yet there outnumbered the majority of Western and European countries at the time), the fact that the White man was more superior in terms of intelligence and advancement OVERCAME the fact that Africans were more in number. This managed to prevail in to Apartheid South Africa and after a visit in September 2002, I realized that there are still very clear remnants.
This is also true in the case of the Sunni minority and Shia majority in Iraq. Since disagreements occured over who should be the true Caliph after the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), the Shia sect was created and they were immediately viewed as heretic by the Sunnis. Today, the Muslim world has approximately 15% Shia and 85% Sunni, regardless of their numbers, the Sunnis will always be seen as the 'White man.'
In theory, the solution you proposed is perfect however pragmatically it is quite difficult to implement. Such a solution will require years of changing traditions, ideals and a country's social equilibrium. For example, in theory Islam treats men and women equally, in fact the Koran states that 'mothers are above the heavens and that the heavens end at their feet.' The religion clearly promotes gender equality however a strict imposition of Islamic Sharia Law in Saudi Arabia has shown the world otherwise.
Sorry, didn't see the comment by "European Observer"
My bad
Egypter
I read your spread comment several times….not to understand, but to see the appropriate way of commenting while reading words like: hate Christians. You are a racist, your energy for anger and hatred, fanatics, you crazy fanatic!!!!! I can't believe how IGNORANT, racist and fundamentalist ……. and some other words like fundamentalist, radicalism, absurd, You're history knowledge is DEEPLY flawed, Comment like this pissed me off, full of hatred, blatant lies, and intolerance. and I noticed a wired and strange trend!! Like here you show your TRUE COLORS! Are you a member of the Ikhwan? Are you one of those crazy women, all wrapped up, that I see on the Ikhwan's website?, I am sure you want an Egypt just for Muslims probably like your fanatical/fundamentalist friends, I AM SURE YOU WOULD LIKE THE COPTS TO BE 0% and here are some lies that you drove about your real intentions egypter: And I do not attack Islam!, I dream of an Egypt for Muslims and Copts,
Egypter
After all of that sweet words that shows your True Color …….i knew how shallow you are Egypter…..
According to the CIA Fact Book ….when the population = 77,500,000 …copts were 7%, and it changed to 9% while the total population= 78,887,007…."very recent change…July 2006 est."
If there are 72 million Egyptians Sara that makes the Copts 13.8% and that's the number that the government gives so it could be even higher.
Sorry to upset you….and showing how much you ignorant and illiterate….
Please pay attention to the statistics and do not despise the great science of statistics…..because using a number like 72 million shows how much childish ignorant illiterate mind you are....
Here is a small lesson to know the importance of numbers boyish egypter
According to international reference. Copts percentage is 9% of 79 million that means that you are 7 millions…..
Using a poppycock number like 72 million…..put you in a bad situation….simply…79,000,000- 72,000,000= 7,000,000 ….your actual percentage…so please be accurate because numbers are meaningful…
CIA- The World Factbook--- Egypt
Also using the statistics science….Alexandria is a sample from the Egyptian society…..Alexandria is a sample for the Muslim Coptic society…..my district is a sample for that relation …my building is a sample for that relation too….
I will not scan every place in Egypt to see how good or bad copts life….I take a sample and I make my vision according to that sample….and that is the professional procedure…..
in my district we have as far as I see 2 churches…..we have 4 big mosques and good amount of zawys zawya means: part of the buildings ground floor is prepared to be a small mosque or a prayer room ….it takes as a max number 50 to 80 prayers
I live in a building owned for copts…I have copts neighbors….so when I talk about copts …I describe what I see not what I read in non-reference websites….and here is the difference between me and you….
when I talk about copts wealth ….it is a fact…..when I talk about free religion practice…it is a fact…..that what I see all around me…..
and I compare between what I see and what I hear from persecution slogans…I am an engineer….those persecutions slogans I read every where on the media are the copts givens nowadays…when I analyze those givens according to my real life and the people around me….I see those slogans the same as Free Iraq slogan……
and if those persecution slogans are considering poor copts in poor regions in Egypt……I think in that poor region churches are their least problems….because 10000% they are starving, uneducated, diseased….there all Muslim and copts are hardly live….
And I will repeat a case I heard in the TV between journalist Adel Hamouda and Mr. Fakhry Abd Al Nour about Coptic persecution in the church availability in a village where copts in this village walk 3Km to the nearest church to baby born baptism and in the same village students have to walk 10Km to the nearest school!!…so people in that village is a sample in poverty in every aspect of life…..
And here is the main reason for all of that…..poverty, unemployment, illiteracy …..that bring up a horrible statistics….it says that 20% of the Egyptians in Population below poverty line that means 16 millions are below the word poor and for sure the percentage of the population at poverty line will be another huge percentage " defiantly more 20% "…..
So talking about copts precaution in unemployment…means a joke…
Talking about 1% percentage for copts in political life "parliament, university professors" …..that also a joke because the Egyptians contributions in the political life is 10% which means 8 millions "who go to vote and participate"…..
That 10% means that all the layers of the society are politically persuaded….
Also it is a well known rule in university appointments…..the lecturer should be sons /daughters of the professors….and there are many distinguished Muslim didn't join the staff because of that rule too.
I can talk to you in each detail several ways and dozens of times, but that is a huge mistake because instead of talking about how Egyptians suffer and how dark is the Egyptian's future according to our economic state…..but we are dispersing to talk about Muslim Coptic relation that started from 1400 years !!!!!!
10 Muslims died with a hand of a mental man "as claimed" in bany mazar and case is closed with no action…..1000 Muslim died in Al Salam 98 and case is closed with no action ….do you see any persecution clue here????
Egyptian observer
in theory Islam treats men and women equally, in fact the Koran states that 'mothers are above the heavens and that the heavens end at their feet.' The religion clearly promotes gender equality however a strict imposition of Islamic Sharia Law in Saudi Arabia has shown the world otherwise.
yes you are right and to the point and we can also add the shoura law "consultant" which is a main concept in islam , where alsoura or consultant means vote and the people should chose their leader by other means Democracy....but because all the arab countries are ruled by dectatores so that showed islam in an incorrectly false way...
Sara, I'm not sure what your obssession over the number of Copts in Egypt is? I really don't. Actually, maybe I do, I think you like to undercut the numbers so that you can diminish the Copt's claims. Why don't you, for once, LISTEN to what a Copt has to say??? Is that so hard? Listen.
And one more thing regarding the population of Christians in Egypt. I don't care if you want to believe there are 8, 10, or 15 million Copts in Egypt. I don't care what the CIA Handbook says because when was the last official proper census done? Go read what Yousef Sidhom writes on Watani about all of the obvious religious persecution Christians are having trying to get their new computerized Identification Cards when they are Christian and it says they are muslim. And why is "religion" on the ID cards anyway??? This is silly.
One more thing, regardless of what you claim to be the numbers of Copts.
THE NUMBER OF COPTS IN EGYPT IS LARGER THAN THE COMBINED POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRIES OF JORDAN AND LEBANON.
Think about that one sara. And contrary to what you may think, I do want Copts and Muslims to live side by side in peace and prosperity.
Egypter
I'm not sure what your obssession over the number of Copts in Egypt is?
Actually I am not obsessed over the population of the Copts….but Copts population is an argument point in all your persecution discussion to prove the discriminating act!!!!
Clues:
1- all the articles you sent me were talking about that topic….
2-Egypter said: One more thing, regardless of what you claim to be the numbers of Copts.
THE NUMBER OF COPTS IN EGYPT IS LARGER THAN THE COMBINED POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRIES OF JORDAN AND LEBANON. ------->..Egypter,that is an obsession with Copts number : )))
So egypter, honestly I am discussing a core point in your persecution problem that I listened and listened several times from Copts which is an Egyptian problem nowadays….
Why did I explain your real percentage in the population?
Because I want to show you that the persecution claims is not true and some intruders in the Coptic society are trying to ignite the sectarianism fire in Egypt….
The same I did when I explained to you the reality in Egypt concerning the unemployment, university staff and political representation….
I am not saying and describe to you the situation to despise your problems…all I want to say that your problems as Copts are also our problems as Muslims….
We all persecuted with no mercy in Egypt….
The split that happened between Muslims and Copts since Al Saddat let both parties don't communicate as they used to be to know each other problems….
Because if there is a discussion channel and communication ways …both parties will know that we all face the same problems "we all in the same basket" ……
And our comments are a communicating form….
i am not saying that you don't suffer in Egypt…but I want to say that we both suffers in Egypt with no partiality….
I wish you got my point….and happy Easter...
Kol sana we enta tayeb
Egypter
concerning what you said:
Go read what Yousef Sidhom writes on Watani about all of the obvious religious persecution Christians are having trying to get their new computerized Identification Cards when they are Christian and it says they are muslim. And why is "religion" on the ID cards anyway??? This is silly.
i guess i commented on that point on neferteeti's blog...
i'll paste to you what i said about this point....
about your previous post about playing with the Copts ID in purpose to make all Christians be Muslims to obey al saddat..
Stop reading for these yellow poor newspaper al watany who twist the truth to serve your dream of being persecuted...
So they change the IDs of Christians to Islamist Egypt????
So why did they change the gender of my daughter to male in her computer certificate????
And also my closest friend received a military letter that she escaped from military service and she will face penalties....because in the government records ...she is MALE!!!!!
So I guess that al saddat also said that all Egyptians should become Muslims and MALES!!!!!
so as you see we all have real problems in the government records....:((
BTW...any small error in the citizen full name in the ID can easily ban that citizen from inheritance....and this is a common problem here in Egypt...
Dear sara:
Listen, I don't doubt that all Egyptians right now are suffering from terrible political leadership in Egypt. Muburak's 25 year reign has sucked much life out of Egypt. I share all of your complaints about that man.
But I'm not sure why you referred to "Watani" as a "yellow paper" which I'm not sure what that means...but it can't be good.
You said:
"Stop reading for these yellow poor newspaper al watany who twist the truth to serve your dream of being persecuted..."
I read Watani Online every week and it's a wonderful newspaper! Who "dreams of being persecuted" sara?? Not me. Not any Copt in the world. Not any human in the world. Why don't you for ONCE JUST LISTEN TO WHAT COPTS ARE UPSET ABOUT. I don't get it. Why don't you just please listen, nothing more.
Anyway, kola sana wa intee tayiba sara. Take care
Peace
And as far as the mistaken ID information. If you just listen to what Watani says you'll see that the "intention" of many of these people is very sinister. Again, I don't doubt the ineptitude and sheer idiocy of many of the government institutions in finding mistakes on ID cards but I can guarantee you many problems arise because of evil intention by SOME individuals.
Hey sara.
I just read an excellent article from that paper you called "yellow" Watani.
It's a call for unity by Youseff Sidhom. I want you to read and let me know what you think. I'm pretty confident that you will see his call for unity a genuine and fair one.
http://www.wataninet.com/article_en.asp?ArticleID=6890
I don't think anyone would disagree.
Sara, I just read an excellent article by Ibrahim Nafie for Al-Ahram Weekly.
Here is an objective view as to the problem that are currently plaguing Egypt. He also suggests some of the same reforms that I do in trying to better Egypt like reforming the Education curricula and Media. Roots of the problem that are responsible for the escalating sectarian nature of Egypt and ones that must be changed in order to tackle this monumental problem.
Take a look, and EO what do you think on this whole matter?
http://www.copts.net/detail.asp?id=940
Peace
@sara and egypeter.
I've been following the constant rebuttal between both of you and I think that he discussion has detracted from whats important.
There needs to be open dialogue between Muslims and Coptics in Egypt. They need to both LISTEN to each other's concerns and find suitable compromises. As I tend to observe the issues discussed in this blog on a secular perspective, I have a 'middle-grounded' opinion on the issue.
I fully condemn any antagonistic attacks by Muslims and Coptics and the recent ones in Alexandria are absolutely appalling. They only reinforce a sense of backwardness and ignorance exhibited by extremist Muslims across the Middle East (and this has been clearly seen during the controversial cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad PBUH).
Thus the Egyptian government needs to teach the citizens (through public discourse and educational programs) the importance of co-existence for the sake of their well-being and standard of living. The government should try to remove the issue of religion from the discussion. This will be proven very difficult but it is not impossible.
Muslims and Coptics should be treated first as humans who are both Egyptian, not as humans which have different beliefs. Both sects should find similarities between themselves instead of pointing out the differences and causing a raucous about it.
Sara, instead of being narrow-minded and parochial towards those who criticize Islam, it is important to embrace them. It is important to understand why they criticize, for either ignorant or stereotypical reasons. If some thought is put in to it, you will realize that figures such as Osama bin Laden have completely tarnished the Muslim image all over the world - the average human tends to stereotype and will ignorantly believe that all Muslims worldwide are aggressive, uncompromising and backward.
Egypeter and other non-Muslims understand very well that this is certainly not the case. They are trying to reach out to moderate, progressive and liberal Muslims for decent discourse and discussion. Arguing over the number of Coptic Christians is not only futile but a complete waste of time.
As I argued in the post, a betterment of economic conditions in Egypt will improve inter-faith relations, naturally. Any myths created about one faith or the other should be completely debunked.
Coptic Christians have long been persecuted in Egypt and OFCOURSE they will seek the help of the church if the government is not willing to help, isn't this logical? If I was a member of a minority group in a country, I would do my best to empower myself or at least find a way to equate myself with the majority.
Egypeter and Sara, I honestly think any harsh and intimidating language is absolutely futile for discussion. Instead, a civil discourse searching for a pragmatic solution is more appropriate.
Thanks EO.
I really liked your comment. You really hit the nail on the head. Maybe "westerners" can't differentiate b/w Bin Laden and moderate progressive muslims. But Copts sure can, we've lived with muslims in times of peace before and now that we can do it again in the future. We know that Egypt has a lot of good moderate muslims but their voices and those of non-muslims are often drowned out in Egypt by those of a more radical nature. This radical aggressive interpretation is something that is very foreign to Egypt. This is not Egyptian nor representative of Egyptians. This mentality is totally alien to our great diverse land of Egypt.
So point being is that we need to eradicate these sentiments from Egypt so that we can return to our past. And ALL progressive secular Egyptians need to work together. I'm all for it man! A secular civil society is the ONLY way to go, of course.
And sad news from Egypt. Looks like Dahab in the Sinai was hit by terrorist bombings. So sad! This is know the third time the Sinai has been hit in the last 18 months. First, Taba then Sharm and now Dahab. Muburak needs to go, now! The guy is absolutely useless.
I was actually about to book my ticket to Sharm in July last year and the bombings hit. My friend and I changed our plans from going to Egypt and went to Turkey instead. I had my heart set on going to Egypt and Sharm but figured the area would be dead after the bombings. Too bad.
Take care EO. Nice talkin.
Peace
Yes you are right in your comment….but what is the cause of the insertion for Osama Bin Laden in our Muslim Coptic relation?????
I know that you consider my point of view in that issue a narrow minded one, and I respect your notes because we are in a free discussion channels…But,
But what you see narrow minded from your point of view …I see it a wide vision from my point of view……the same as using bin laden in discussing that issue is unrelated topic and a point to divert the core of our discussion…
Why such differ in our point of view and that includes also the point of view that Egypeter said????
Because simply I live here in Egypt where the actions and events really occurred…..I listen to the people who I met at work, club, families, friends….plus our media which is different than yours...
Copts are not those westerns or Americans who don't know what is al Islam and how is the Muslim….they know it well and you can read from their Pope shenoda describing how our prophet (PBUH) asked the Muslims to take care of the Egyptian Copts in special…and he said that they are in the dhimma of Muslims….and the word dhimma is abused by the intruders in the Coptic society….
Dhimma means: that they are in our protection and care…….
We lived in a harmony for hundreds of years while Egypt has Muslims by the majority ….
EO, you may not know the turning point for the Copts relation with Muslims….
It was their honor…..yes their honor…….
Egypeter can't deny that point….because I met him several times in different posts talking about that point….and Egypeter himself used to say bad comments about it in return…
What is that honor issue???
It is about the rumor of kidnapping Christian girls and forcing them to Islam….
Here is one of the top demands of the copts4free organization:
4-Copts want an end to forced conversion of Christian girls, who are kidnapped and raped by Muslim extremists. There are reports of police
protection given to the abductors.
Am I right egypter????
Is that what made our relation took a religious type???
I am happy when I discussed the sectarian issue with egypter on an economical, education manner….I liked what he sent me from articles and I liked replying to them with no harm….
But the bad history me and egypter had because of that religious talk about the rumor of the islamization of the Egyptian society…
I see that those Copts girls and women put bad feelings and set up the fire between Muslims and Copts…because as I see…it is unsolved complicated honor issue?
I wish to put it apart and the police is now returning those girls to the church although they are Muslims!!!
Anyway Egypeter….i am with all the Egyptians who say: patriotism and citizenship must come back to the egyptians…..
EO: I consider your comments and I know how the Arabs and Muslims in general feel out there in America and how Osama bin laden is disturbing and spoiling your stay out there…..
I know that your good work and your true good ethics is your method to enhance the picture of Arab and Muslims out there….
But your method is not applicable here in Egypt because what we face with Copts is an Egyptian-Egyptian issue not related to what you see out there…it is econmical,eduational and relegional related issue...
concerning bin laden---->Please read this……
War Without End
http://www.globalecho.org/view_article.php?aid=6236
@Sara. The point of mentioning Osama Bin Laden is to show you how hollistically speaking, the image of Muslim is being distorted and tarnished. Moreover, the cause of my insetion of Osama Bin Laden is that he has recently issued another fatwa asking for Muslims to fight ANY NON-MUSLIMS around the world. That is why he is applicable to the situation in Egypt, Coptic Christians have become targets themselves.
This is happening in Egypt on a micro-level between Muslims and Copts. Again, eccentric, erratic and absolutely bigoted and irrational behavior by Muslim extremists has reinforced the Bin Laden-Muslim stereotype which the whole world is following.
I am not proposing a 'method' nor am I saying that my 'method' will work in Egypt. What I trying to allude is that Muslims HAVE BEEN BEHAVING VERY BADLY lately and this has been the case internally in Egypt, in Europe and other places around the world.
Egyptians should be EGYPTIANS FIRST before being Muslim or Christian and with a listening ear from the Muslims and patience from the Coptics - an eventual resolution could come in to place.
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